Dreamweaver and Web Standards

I've just replied to a post in which someone asked for software recommendation. The poster asked for advice on which HTML editor to go for but wanted a visual (WYSIWYG) editor. I said, try and code by hand but dreamweaver's the best if you must. This got me thinking though. I know a few people on here use dreamweaver as their main editor using the code view and I'm sure many other use the design view as well. It is a powerful piece of software though it does come at a high price. It has great site management tools and offers an editing suite packed with features (editor, file browser, preview screen, ftp, even asset management i think) that text editors simply do not offer even the much heralded Coda for mac isn't this complete. The one thing dreaamweaver lacks is good code, which is a shame as it is the most important thing. But each time they renew the software and especially when DW8 came out, they were touting it's great support of Web Standards and accessibility, etc. So were they just lying or is it possible without ever leaving the design view to create a site that has clean, semantic, standards based code that seperates structure from presentation and validates? If I were to create the most accessible standards based website possible with every accessibility feature imaginable by hand, could I then recreate this with dreamweavers design view? I think it might be possible. I've not even seen it in a while but I'm sure that when you are formating elements in dreamweaver there are lost of options such as adding attributes etc. There is decent css support as well I think. It might just be possible. It may take forever to do and it might be quicker, if you were just starting out, to learn html and css from scratch but it could work.

I have decided to set myself a challenge and do this. I will create a site by hand and the code will as pure and as beautiful as possible. I will then post this site in the crtique forum so everyone can help make the code as good as possible. The best it could possibly be. I will then try to recreate this masterpiece of good coding in Dreamweaver without ever leaving design view and see how it works out. If it is possible then I will stop criticising Dreamweaver and instead criticise the people who don't know how to use it properly. If it doesn't work, I will continue to hold dreamweaver responsible for the majority of bad sites I see on the 'net.

Thoughts?

Pete.

Very interesting....

I immediately ran to my Dreamweaver 8 and opened it. I am now in design view and have been able to enter a <div></div> which I did not know was possible by using the Insert > Tag > HTML Tags > formatting and Layout.

Honestly did not know that existed since I've been using the code view.
As I added a div tag, it instantly asked me to put in a bunch of accessibility information. I think there is a bit of a learning curve with this method as well. As is with anything new. The pop up also asked me to identify what css style I wanted within that div. So I do think it might be possible Pete.

I do see however that even using design view you have to know basic html. Otherwise how else would you know a div is needed?

I anxious to see how this experiment plays out.

Obviously the whole thing will be skewed because of my knowledge of html and css. Also how would you know those accessibility features are necessary without having looked at the subject in some detail. But it will be interesting nonetheless.

Pete.

DW CS3 is much better although I still don't trust it fully.

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I have Dreamweaver 2k4 and since I see no point in upgrading because I code by hand I don't think I will for a LONG time. But I have played around with it a good bit and there is a way you can define styles and apply them through the design menu to all the elements. Also, my version uses Span tags but I found a place in the options where I can change that to div tags. And when creating a new page there is another checkbox that has Make XHTML when creating a new document. With all this it STILL produces bloated code and it doesn't validate, but its a whole lot closer than it was before.

Plus, I can hand code a site in about 10 minutes, don't see why I'd drag and drop for hours and get less quality, lol.

I think if you're careful, it is possible to create lean code. But you have to take control and decide everything. I can handcode pretty quickly, not a whole site in 10 minutes but quite fast. I think the trick is not just knowing valid code but how to code, what elements to use and why. I wonder if DW will let me apply my knowledge to a project without getting in the way and making a nuisance of itself.

Moojoo, I'm just downloading CS3 Design Premium now. I was waiting and waiting to get it and I thought now is as good a time as any but I swear I have just been robbed. £1700 it cost me. Not funny, It'd better be good. At least I'll be able to see what DW CS3 has to offer.

Pete.

I don't think you will ever be able to produce the same quality code in design view. Even if the editor is aware of validation, standards and conventions, you will still end up with bloated, full of useless spaces code. I know I'm being picky, but I think it's a fair point...

Well i've been playing and I have a layout and quite frankly the code couldn't cleaner. One massive problem is that you can't press anything without really thinking about it. If you place an element and then delete it it leaves bit's of code behind. Imagine a few weeks of that, you would have the most disgusting code ever. You have to 'undo' your last action rather than delete the element, it's a real pain. But there is a brilliant tag inspector tool and you can put in every attribute imaginable without placing any unwanted code. It took me a while to work this stuff out but it's quite nice and there are some tools built in that could really improve workflow. My opinion of DW is changing and quickly. It really is about how you use it. I'm sure it has it's limitations and no doubt I'll be wishing it never existed in an hour or so.

Pete.

Ahh, the old Dreamweaver Debate. As I have stated before, I use code view to build my sites and if I want to see if it looks right I switch over to design. It has helped me avoid more than a few ooops. What I have learned about using Dreamweaver is that you have to control it and not let it tell you how to do it. It does take getting use to, but hey, I spent the money, I might as well get my monies worth.

CS3 is worth it for Fireworks alone. But the new Dreamweaver is now a universal binary and so far is hella nice in code view. I still never use design view even for previews but its nice.

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Well the new versions of PS, Illustrator, InDesign were nice too and I'll admit they were my main reason for buying. I take it for granted sometimes but the Abode CS is an awesome package and it's even better now.

Pete.

Wow, I will be interested to see what you get in the end. I don't really think it is possible either...lol.