Ultimate Newbie.....Ultimate Query!

If anyone can manage to get through this question and stay alive and still have the will to live (lol) then thanks in advance for your time!.........

Im very new to web design, Ive "dabbled" over the years, done very very basic ones for my dad when I was younger using Frontpage, and last year I made a start getting the very rough work done on a new website using Adobe Go-Live, which I inherited with a spare computer I bought (dont worry, its legitimate).

I cant say I do things well, or properly, but I just know the basics, I use Photoshop alternatives sometimes and CAD applications and have used GO live to arrange pictures, text and create clickable links so that pages threaded together.


Thats pretty much my knowledge of websites.

Im now over 30 years old, and to be honest, after about 8 years away from actively learning computer stuff, the terminology, the technology, the issues and programs thats come in that time render me pretty dumbfounded and I admit I really struggle to learn, and to be honest learning web design isnt really my aim - so that makes it harder still. No disrespect, but its not my chosen career or interest really. I just need to know what I need to know to "slink by" and do what I gotta do.

Right, onto my question!.

I want to create something for myself and others, but I really dont have the first idea where to start or what I need to do to be able to manage it, considering my low skill level.
I dont even know if its possible, Ive done a bit of research but Ive never come accross a tool that fits my bill, and when I have found ones that i *think* are similar to what I want to do, there are either problems or shortfalls, or there is just simply no "laymans terms" instructions on what the hell youre supposed to do to get the thing made and up online. Sure, they tell you what it can do, but they dont tell you what you need to do as a novice.

The best way I can describe it, is that I want to make a website which is a mixture of Drupal, Wiki, KnowledgeTree, PowerKnow, and KnowledgeBase. (I think).

What I want the website to do is:

1) Be a knowledge website/depositry where anyone in the world can add content.

2) Have a look and feel thats easy to use, Im thinking an interface perhaps like DekiWiki, KnowledgeTree, Powerknow. Where a 'folder tree' or category section is presented on the left, the results presented on the right, and when clicked opens the relevant document on the right.

3) To have a WYSIWYG interface for the users, where you can also add saved webpages, microsoft/open office files, PDFs etc.

4) A search facility where not only are the pages searched, but also the PDF's and Word Documents in the storage files.

5) An ability to control the extent of what people can do, and control the content so that duplicates can be identified, and re-organise things into different categories if I believe they have put the information in the wrong section. Ban users, delete dubious content etc etc.

6) Possibly create some sort of data collection mechanism that can fish out facts and figures, or some place on the site to deposit facts and figures from articles or reports.

This is the rough way I see it working:

There are 10 categories on the left hand side, lets say its a political analysis website and the categories are:

Health, Education, Welfare, Transport, Economy, etc etc etc.

Under those sections will be filed articles, reviews, newspaper comments, relative to those categories, which people from allover the country upload themselves into the system, and they all "take on" the same end look and feel.

So, within Education for example, you might eventually end up with 600+ pages of articles of what various political parties have been doing or promising regarding Education, or what the pass rates were the year before, which schools have excelled and all that stuff.

Heres where the aim of my site comes in.......say for example somebody wants to know what the Education Minister said about Science Classes being dropped for other subjects, they could do a search for the Ministers Name, or the Party they represent, and type Science Classes and they would hopefully be presented with articles from newspapers, word documents, PDF reports, which are relevant to that specific niche find, and they can then work through and read up about what happened and when, who said what and when.

If somebody has also put a file/newspaper report/document of some sort into another category (- to extend the previous example -) there might have been an Industry Mogul bemoaning the fact we are loosing Science Graduates and that its damaging the industry sector, I would like to see that show up too under the search........and if you can see my dilemma, the article is relevant to both sections because its related to Science Class and related to Industry....so a user could drop it in what I percieve to be the wrong section........but I wouldnt want it duplicated into both......I would need it to be cross referenced or also brought up through a search.

Im not sure where I would host this thing, (if its possible!!) hopefully somewhere in the United States that offers free website space, or somewhere in the United States that offers cheap space.

Im not sure what I need to make this, how easy it will be for a complete novice, what I need to do to get it online at all, how to test it, etc etc.

I really am starting from nothing and just asking for any advice on how to achieve the project easily and cheaply. Its going to be a free service, non profit, and Im just an ordinary bloke off the street who works in a ordinary job and just feels the need to bring this thing out to the open. I havent the funds to run expensive websites or pay anyone to do it, I would need to use as much "pre done" stuff I can, open source softwares, and ofcourse the softwares I already own like Go-Live, some old Photoshop alternative I have (Gimp?), so I can just organise things how I want, choose an interface, put up a design for the look and feel of the place, logo's and banners, etc etc.


This is the closest thing Ive found, but I need it to be simpler and more Joomla/Drupal/DekiWiki or whatever, and fully based online - not for an internal "corporate company" type situation:


http://www.powerknow.com/com/powerKNOW-Flyer.pdf

However, PowerKnow costs $1,300 and I dont have the luxury of laying that amount out for what is essentially a hobby idea, and Im not sure it even fulfuls the web collaboration side of things I need. Plus, I dont know how it works! I got a trial download and well, after unzipping it I didnt have a clue what to do next, theres no "program" as such, its just PHP stuff, which I know zero about. Wiki isnt the style I need, its too chaotic and longwinded, a "forum" was my initial thought where I just used locked "posts" as article storage, but I cant upload webpages or files and the search isnt clever, and its not really suitable or easy to get around.

There has to be something easier that does the same job as Powerknow, Knowlegetree etc and can fulfill my tasks, and hopefully any old idiot off the street can use without spending many months learning programming and what all the acronyms mean!!.

Thanks to anyone who read though to the end, and thanks to anyone with any helpfull suggestions.

Eps.

Well...

Let me say this, for someone who doesn't want to learn web design/development you couldn't have picked a tougher task.

To get what you want you are essentially looking for a site that encompasses at least :

• HTML/CSS -- for the markup and display
• Javascript with AJAX -- for the WYSIWYG interface so that there is no page reload for the changes
• A server side scripting language -- PHP/ASP for the processing and retrieval of data and to work with ajax.
• A relational database to store everything in a manner that it can be retrieved without killing your server
• XML -- to store uploaded pages and documents
• CGI/PHP extensions to read data contained within uploaded PDF documents

AND...

You want to find a package available for free and ready to do everything you need....

I don't mean to be too blunt but I think you're going to have a helluva time finding that without 1) Doing it yourself 2) Paying someone to do it for you or 3) Finding a programmer who really sees a benefit in the task to do it for you.


The easiest way to do it would be combining a few open source packages together... You may wish to combine a forum with a wiki and a file upload database. This still won't be easy, not by a long shot and would still require the AJAX setup to have it WYSIWYG.

I don't know a great deal about the packages you mention as I build most programs I need myself. I just wanted to point out that what you're asking is no small thing and show you the scope from a developers point of view.

Many thanks for your quick response!

Wow, thats been a helpfull start. I really didnt know what to expect at all. Cheers for being blunt, because theres no point being anything otherwise.

I was kind of hoping there would be a kind of "well, you need to download A, download B and C, then edit it all together with D, then upload it somehow E" lol.

I can do graphic work, layout, Ive tons of content for the project.....but from there I got stuck. I see a lot of programs that are close/similar but not fully able to fit my needs (unless Im just not understanding how I can use them for what I want).

For example, it was only this evening I found out about Drupal.......but I proclaim my ignorance and say I dont know what to do with it even if I downloaded it, and whether I can make it do what I need because it seems to require "code" and not a user interface (like GoLive for example). I searched the addons for "search facilities" and couldnt find out whther you could search inside of documents....so I just get into bewilderment at what the heck it is Im actually looking into lol. Looking through all the programs Id bookmarked, like KnowledgeTree, PowerKnow, DekiWiki, Joomla, KnowledgeBase, it becomes hard to tell what direction to turn.

I guess its not really feasible to do my example task 'off the shelf'. So thanks for your reply and I might investigate what you suggested about the other combination. I have no knowledge of what Java is, CSS (other than what it stands for), PHP, CGI or XML (LOL!!).....so youre right, I think Id struggle.

Im not saying Im reluctant to learn or unable to learn, but when it comes to "going under the hood" with all those things in the list, it would take me about 5 years to even come close, not the say 5 months Id hoped to do the work and get it going.

Well, I think its back to the drawing board for a while to see what can be done the other way, or another way.

These are the kinds of things Ive been "flailing" around looking at:

http://www.download3k.com/Business-F...edge-Base.html

http://drupal.org/about

http://www.knowledgetree.com/products

http://www.powerknow.com/com/onlinedemo.htm

http://www.opensourcecms.com/

and ofcourse:

http://wiki.mindtouch.com/Deki_Wiki

But Im getting confused at what does what.....Am I off track with "CMS" systems and KnowledgeBases......is Joomla and Drupal more a web construction tool and not designed for internet wide open collaboration...... should I be more along the lines of DekiWiki, because that sounds good but I would want to host it seperately to the Delelopers servers, and again, I dont know if its right for my needs.

Do you think DekiWiki could be applied? If so, what do I roughly need to do, in laymans terms, from downloading it to putting it "live" on the net?. Is this even classed as web design? Its creating a webpage/web based thing to look at/interrogate, but maybe "web design" is the wrong title?.

Cheers

Eps.

Since you want other users to contribute to this project, I do think you probably want to look into wiki programs. There are many open source wiki's here. My suggestion would be to surf those and see which one has a help forum, documentation on installation and usage.

I have been designing for 10 years and consider myself a designer. I have no interest in programming other than the off the shelf "little things". I would no more attempt to try your project than fly to the moon. I don't mean to be negative but your vision is GRAND to say the least. With the amount of content you are speaking of, you would have to find a hosting partner that saw your vision to keep the cost low or free. You'd probably have to have a business plan and to do this as non-profit is less than wise.

I would also suggest you ditch Go-Live. It's junk. I've seen code that it makes and it is awful. I can't even imagine what results it will create cross many browsers. I cannot emphasize this enough!

There are many free or low cost html editors that would allow you to develop clean code. My advice would be to learn xhtml and css first. Then go down the list that Rakuli gave you. Walk before you can run.

Good luck to you! It was fun reading your post!

Appologies for the lack of reply. Ive been a bit busy.

Okay. I think my initial idea is pretty much screwed.......I really havent a clue what Im doing, cos Im a total "noob" in the entire field of websites and programming.

However, Ive been taking another look at:

DekiWiki

and

Drupal.

These might be able to do what I (basically) want, if I can lay them out properly and run particular add ins and skins. Both sites claim they are "easy to use" and "easy to set up" etc but Im struggling with both.

I downloaded DekiWiki and the VM player to make it run as a local host (I have no website space yet, I want to design it and test it on my own machine first).

I managed to 'load' the Dekiwiki front page into the VM player........but, although I can add "pages" to it, I have looked allover at whats on the display and nowhere can I find anywhere to (for example) create a structure tree down the side, change the logo's, or do anything at all other than what the end user would do.

So, after a good day or so looking around the internet for help or tutorials, I found nothing whatsoever that was explained in a way that wasnt very technical and well above my head.

In the meantime, I thought Id give DRUPAL a whirl. So I downloaded Drupal and read though hours worth of pages as I looked for what the hell Im supposed to do with the thing once Ive downloaded it. (Remember, Im used to downloading a program and running a setup.exe, then being presented with a user interface, save buttons and the like, and these programs dont seem to have such things).

Eventually, by fluke, I found a page on the Drupal site that explained whats required to run it as a 'local' machine under XP pro. So, I read though the instructions, downloaded XAMPP (Sql, Apache, Php, etc package), and tried to follow the instructions.

I kind of got it half working, I edited the text files it told me to, and when I typed in my chosen address into a browser (eg. www.mydrupalsite.local ) I got a page from XAMPP saying it was sucessfully installed. But again.....what do I do now?.

Ive chcked the "Status" of the XAMPP services, and after much hassle I figured out what was blocking port 80 on my machine and managed to jumpstart Apache services, but MySql is not always working for some reason.

At the moment I feel like a 4 year old trying to fly an Atlantic aeroplane. Ive had a few rides on the pretend ones outside of Supermarkets that rock up and down, and now Im sat infront of some 8,000 button control deck and I dont know how to even turn the thing on lol.

Why on Earth isnt there some "Simpletons Guide" to using these softwares?.

They all seem to assume prior knowledge, prior knowledge of other programs like Joomla or Wordpress, or that you know what a PHP MySQL postscript database is, (made that up by the way lol) and how to get the thing started and what to type and edit inside windows' deeply filed inner workings.

At the moment, Im reading the same few paragraphs about 10 times and not taking it in. I know Im not 'thick', I have an HND in Mechanical Engineering, but this stuff is bewildering me.

I've had an offer for some help via a PM, but to be honest the nature of the project is quite sensitive (and maybe even objectionable to some people), also Im not sure how well I will pursue it, and I dont think Id like to involve anybody else at this time because it would be a waste of their time.

Besides feeling down about it, Im getting there, slowly (researching, downloading the programs, trying to work though the XAMPP stuff)........its just very slowly.

Does anyone have any advice regarding what to do with Drupal etc, in a real comedy "talk to me like Im a four year old" type way .

Thanks again,

Epic.

I think to be 100% honest with you. You say you have a very very basic know how of web design and you really are looking into building a very large complex website using various languages. In this case, In my opinion you would be best hiring a professional web designer to do such a site, yeah it would cost money but atleast you know it would be done correctly.

Web design is such a tough learning skill and yeah its for the dedicated who live and breath this.

I dont mean my reply in badness, not at all. I just think your looking into a far to complex site for your skills.

Thanks Shammy2007.

Ive spent most the free time Ive had after work (before rubbing my eyes with tiredness at bedtime!) trying to get Drupal to work. A few days ago, I sacked off trying to do it on my own local host, and searched for a free website provider that would allow a Drupal install. That was much easier, I just loaded it up and off I went.......but then I wasnt sure how to organise it.

Eventually, I managed to create some "Blocks" and "Menu's" to provide a tree-like structure down the left with all the categories and sub categories I wanted. So far, so good, I thought........but nope, I just simply cannot control my data how I like. The "Story" and the "Page" just wont go into their relevant categories and sub categories nomatter how hard I try, and they display as short "blog" style entries, wheras ideally I just want "single line" entry that is then clicked and taken to a page. This is because there will eventually be thousands of entries and wading though reams of text down the screen is a really bad idea.

Unless Im really missing the point, and am unaware of the full potential, I see Drupal as not being suitable for my task.

The programs I have found for collaborative data sharing etc are mostly orientated around buisiness/networks and dont have "online" "access to anyone" solutions. The other things I have found, like C.M.S software and Wiki's just dont seem to have the ability to easily do what I need to do.

I think Im looking for some sort of Knowledge Base software combined with an Online Collaboration tool, that also works a bit like "windows explorer" but anyone can upload and share information and view the information like a webpage. Its just too hard to describe, its quite clear in my head what I want, but piecing it together in a description is really hard, especially when I dont know the right terminology.

I just cant believe there isnt something out there that combines the previous lists of softwares and delivered in an "every day persons" way so that they can just "use" the thing out of the box!!!. But alas, it just doesnt seem to be.

The project was intended to be free, so really, I dont desire to pay what would be very large sums for large programs or tailor made solutions, and due to some sensitivities Im not keen to involve others who may not agree to the principle its intended for (long story).

I think Im going to give it up as a bad job but still keep my eyes open for something that might do it as a 'package'. Failing that, if I could find a "Forum" software that allowed a full WYSIWYG editor, attachments, and the ability to search within attachments, that might have to suffice even though its not the "tool" I pictured and would be the equivalent of a elastic band propelled helicopter compared to the real thinfg lol.

Thanks everybody for your time. I dont think I will be back in the future, considering lol, but thats nothing against the forum or anyone here, its just I nolonger have a reason to frequent forums on website designs.

I might get round to finishing my dads website one day, so I might be back about that......but regarding this project, I believe this parrot is deceased.....dead....brown bread....passed on...no more......ceased to be... expired and gone to meet its maker.....bereft of life resting in peace...pushing up the daisies....kicked the bucket...shuffled off its mortal coil........ (Python rip off).

Toodle pip.

Epichouse.

Well for the forum idea. Invision power board is pretty easy to use on a starter level.