How practical is Flash?

[proton32060]

I scrolled through all the Posts here and never saw this question so I will ask it.

The question is how practical is Flash beyond an impressive intro?

As I said earlier, I was not due to start learning Flash for a month or so but a bad intro forced me to at least get an overview of it now.

I had no idea how impressive Flash was until I started looking through what other people had done with it.

I can see a lot of potential for it throughout a Website but has it become prevalent enough to use it heavily?

Also, I am wondering about download times. Could a site heavy in Flash make the site useless to anyone using a dial up connection?

I have come up with a lot of ideas and the site would be incredible but I doubt if anyone without a broadband connection would ever see it.

I realize this is a pretty broad question, but how much do you guys really use Flash in your sites?

[courtjester]

flash is one of those things mate... Some sites can look great in flash... while others don't have any business using it at all. Flash can be used for online games, chat programs, Websites, Banners, Navigational Menus, Cartoons, Movies, forms, and all kinds of stuff. Now if you do it right Dial-up people will be able to see it and use it, but if you do it wrong than they wont. Remember that they only connect at 56kb/s so if your .swf file is under 56k then it will load fast for them... but if its in the megs.. then it is completely useless to all Dial up people and even most of the broadband people. ( as people on broadband don't want to wait 5 seconds...) It can be used for everything basically, but Can and Should are two different things. Sirkent let me in on that secret. Once I discovered Flash I thought I had all the answers and would never use anything else again, but Now have come to realize that flash isn't for everyone or every site.

[Webforumz Staff]

Court Jester is basically right, apart from his 56kb/s reasoning :wink:. 56kb is 56 kilobits, not bytes. It translates to a maximum of 7 kilobytes a second on diallup. Most people, after the "talking" that has to be done and the quality of their line, get somewhere around 5 kilobytes a second. Remember, you can always preview your movie in flash and simulate the download on a 56kb modem - A very handy feature and one that, when I use it, reminds me just how slow diallup is!

Flash can be used for anything. There is no exception as far as I know. Technically, Amazon or Google could be Flash, but we know what an amazingly bad idea that would be. But like every other technology, there are places where you would use it and places where you wouldn't. You wouldn't design a layour in Photoshop and put it into HTML at full quality so that there was around 1 meg of images just for the template, would you? Flash can (and often is) misused in the same way. Truth be told, flash can be as small if not smaller than most websites made in HTML, but it isn't as accessible (you can't copy-paste text most of the time, you can't scroll down on most flash sites - it's done for you, etc). So that control that's been given to the designer is great in a way, because some people do design incredible wonderful sites in flash that really show how wonderful flash is. Other sites just abuse that power.

Two of our previous Website of the Month winners ( http://www.webforumz.com/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=1072 ) show just how great Flash can be used. I don't think I need to give you a link to bad flash - You've probably found some before.

I now include an article from WebProNews, from a couple of years ago. It's been posted all over the web, so I doubt they'll mind now!

-----------------

Editor's Note - 04.08.02* * * * * * * * *

Hello Readers!

Flash MX is, of course, the big news in Web design today. The latest release of this very popular product has the industry buzzing about Web sites completely designed around Flash, rather than only incorporating Flash elements.

Flash has become the standard for animated movies on the Web, and it's estimated that the player is installed on over 96% of computers on the Internet. In fact, Macromedia, the creator of Flash, is encouraging designers to use the new ability of Flash MX to create entire sites in Flash. Some see problems with this approach, however. To see what both sides have to say about this read the article here (see below).

Some Web users (and designers too!) really don't like Flash - they hate it, in fact. Some of this anti-Flash sentiment is undoubtedly due to surfers viewing too many bad Flash sites created by unenlightened amateurs. Flash can be slow, ugly, and can even force you to endure lengthy movie downloads before you're able to reach the area of sites you need to access.

Today's article takes Flash's side, and dispels some of the unearned criticisms endured by the Web design tool. As the author Harry H. Husted points out, Flash is no worse than other design tools in the wrong hands. A poorly designed site is the fault of the designer and no reason to condemn any specific product. Whether you're a Flash supporter or denigrator, you will want to have a look at this fascinating article.

Happy reading!


Flash - Curse or a Blessing * * * ** * * ** * * * *

by Harry H. Husted

With its popularity, has come certain misconceptions, or 'myth-conceptions', since many of these half-truths has become known as Internet folklore.

There are many of these 'myth-conceptions' but I will cover just five of the most revealing, and prevailing ones I hear about:

1. Flash takes too long to download and too long to run.
2. Flash looks good but is also ugly.
3. Businesses that are serious about making money do not use Flash on their site.
4. You need to wait a long time for Flash's runtime files to download.
5. Anyone can use Flash - it's easy.

1. Flash takes too long to download and too long to run. There is a grain of truth here, especially if the flash programmer is not careful and considerate about bandwidth and streaming related issues. Remember that Flash uses streaming technology, so it can begin displaying animation the moment it has downloaded enough content, as long as the content is limited to some initial text and simple graphics. The rate of playback is usually slower than the rate of download.

If the programmer is not careful with these design considerations, it can force a browser to wait, what could seem minutes, before 3d rendered objects, large bitmaps and a complete musical score all try to download over a small connection, resulting in a blank screen.

The trick is to provide some sort of preloader, so many scenes are loaded first while the main show loads in the background.

Knowing these facts, should we blame Flash when we run into a Flash produced Web site? No more than PhotoShop can be blamed for those who decide to cram half a meg worth of unoptimized photos onto their Web page.

2. Flash looks good but is also ugly. Most amateur Flash programmers equate Flash with "flashy": lots of spinning text, fancy moving graphics, and special effects.

The reality is that Flash is a tool, not a solution. The programmer's experience, capabilities, vision and wisdom is what makes the animation either 'cool' or ugly. If someone created an ugly HTML-based site, with bad graphics, does that make Dreamweaver or FrontPage a bad tool?

Flash supports the following functions: connections to back-end databases, CGI &*JavaScript, XML, sockets, interactivity, and animation.

3. Businesses that are serious about making money do not use Flash on their site. Do you think Disney is not serious about making money? Do you think Coke really needs to charge 75 cents for a can of soda? Is Calvin Klein underwear worth $18 a pair? They spend millions and millions on advertising, and we pay for it through pricing.

These firms collectively spend billions of dollars on marketing. They work hard to make you feel good about going to Disneyland, or buying a Coke, or shopping for a handbag. This type of effective marketing is impossible with a text-only campaign.

Flash provides a relatively low-impact, high-payback means of creating compelling, entertaining and effective customer interactions, whether they are rich-media emails, banners, animations, games, navigation systems, how-to manuals, CDs or entire web sites.

4. You need to wait a long time for Flash's runtime files to download. Yes, you do need a runtime (plug-in or Active X control) to view a Flash movie. But any major browser after v4.0, as well as Win 98 and Mac OS 9, ship with the very small Flash runtime engine. According to Macromedia, 96% of all computers can see Flash movies.

If a programmer chooses to use a newer version of Flash (currently version 5) than he or she can download the latest version, which takes about a minute to complete. While this may be viewed by some as an inconvenience, it is a far quicker solution than some other popular browser add-ins, such as Quicktime, Real Player, Acrobat &*Shockwave. In fact, the Shockwave player started this myth because it was several Megs in size and took a considerably long time to download than the small (less than 200K) Flash runtime.

5. Anyone can use Flash **it's easy! With the latest release of Flash, I have noticed a marked increase in the number of "Flash 5 for Dummies" books. More bad Flash coming at you!

The basics of Flash are easy to grasp. It's only these basics that most amateurs use when creating those 'sites' that create or prolong these myth-conceptions. The professional will go beyond the basics and move into the advance stage. They will use vision, voice, style and learn the wisdom of when to use a particular effect and, more importantly, when not to.

As with any tool, it's the way it's used. Anyone can pick up the basics of HTML, put together a few Web pages over a weekend, and call it a site. Which one do you want representing your business **the amateur or the professional?

Flash is an extremely powerful tool, with an amazing set of features and functionality. But it is only a tool **not a solution. It can be a wonderful addition to an experienced programmer's tool chest. Use it wisely and you can become a hero. Abuse it, and your sites will vanish in time.

What better way to use Flash then to incorporate Flash with information. When producing a Flash movie or demo, include content with it. If creating Flash with content is not feasible, make sure the movie leads into the article, so when Flash is done, a new screen appears with the article intact.

About the Author:
Harry H. Husted is the Associate Editor at MedioCom.net (www.mediocom.net). If you are looking to increase traffic and sales on your Web site, MedioCom delivers a wide variety of content solutions, all easily accessed through www.mediocom.net. Check it out today!

-- WebProNews is an iEntry, Inc. publication --
©*2002 iEntry, Inc. All Rights Reserved Privacy Policy Legal

[courtjester]

:sad: Well my reasoning was close.. :wink: . lol, I did put K and not kb.. my bad [:P] . Nice article ya found there Sirkent. I enjoyed it . That makes me want to take this article and paste it on every flash designer in my hometown, maybe they will quit while their ahead. lol, maybe I won't have to see anymore 2.5 MB sites, with no preloader, and no actionscript whatsoever, and blinking text, and full length motion pictures embedded in them. Just wish I had a printer...

[proton32060]

Thanks Guys, I really appreciate the input.

The one thing I have gotten from all this is to get my wife’s site up now while I am learning Flash and once I have a thorough understanding of what I am doing ( which will obviously take time) then decide what Flash components it should have, if any.

It has become obvious that learning Flash and learning to use it intelligently are two different things.

That does lead to one interesting question.

Does anyone gather statistics regarding Broadband penetration in different cities or locations?

It is obvious that dial-up is going the way of B&W television. The sites you see now demonstrate that.

Knowing what percentage of your target audience is using what would surely have a definite impact on Website design.

If say, dial up had dropped to below 20% in your area, it sure seems that would have an impact on design considerations.

Sure it might give some license to create something that would choke even a broadband connection, but it would also allow others to create more compelling sites without the data trickle limitation currently considered the standard.

Something else it brings to mind.

In a post I placed a few weeks ago, one poster suggested Flash over javascript since there is overlap between what they both can do. At least in certain instances.

Now I fully admit I am still pretty low on the learning curve. But javascript seems to be a more compact method of getting a desired effect when it is appropriate.

Is that reasoning correct?

I have a feeling this is going to be one of those,” it varies with the situation” anwsers.

[courtjester]

well in all honesty it does vary within the situation... you don't want to use flash to do ALL your forms... I mean, yeah flash can validate forms.. but whats the point? It's going to take longer than JavaScript to load and the client support isn't much different. Then again, JavaScript has a lot of things (like games, cheesy page effects, and random images) that flash can do much better. So it just depends on what your doing really. Also, please note that having a random banner in GIF format with JavaScript randomizer is very common to this day, and actually a faster way of loading.

[Webforumz Staff]

Javascript is a bit of an odd language. It's powerful in some respects, because you can do anything from form validation, to games, to simple effects on screen. It can also go anywhere on the browser screen and interact with existing HTML elements. There is a still a myth that Javascript is dangerous and some people disable it due to this myth, so you can't guarantee that everyone is using Javascript. Worse still... Some Javscript works in some browsers but not in others, so you have to spend a lot of time writing code that will work cross-browser.

Flash on the other hand is self-contained and can't really interact with HTML elements of the page. You can't disable it - You can only choose to install it, or not. Every version of flash 7, flash 6, or flash 5 is the same. There are obviously differences between each version, but you can be sure that if you publish in one of those and stick to it then what you publish will works the same on pretty much any platform. There are a few exceptions with the Mac and so forth, but most of those are fixed and part of history.

I would not say that Javascript is compact... Just that it was built to offer dynamic HTML in the browser. Flash was made, primarily, for animation and basic scripting, although that has grown.

I wouldn't use Flash for a form on an HTML page... that seems pointless. Why trust that the technology is there, when you know that HTML could do the job just as well? If you can't trust that Javascript is enabled, then bringing Flash into the equation is like assuming that Javascript is there... so why do that? Most people on these forums will know, that when it comes to building a server-side application, you don't trust the client! So you would ignore the client side and include server-side validation.

So yeah... that I would say is the main difference... Flash is self-contained and Javascript is meant to alter HTML on-the-fly.

I work for a company as their flash designer - and I must say that it seems you are all on here slagging off flash and saying all this about amateurs but YOU are all ameteurs, I am a professional and I have to say that a lot of what you say is very prevelent but the 'flashy' flash is only the very veneer on the surface of the wood. Real flashers use flash as a programming environment, its just a programming environment that looks nice - and it is not self contained - within actionscript you can code javascript, and much more so comparing them is rediculous - it is like comparing two computers - one with top spec everything and one with top spec everything and loads of extras. Please, please, please do not go posting things claiming to be fact on sites like this where the 'ameteurs' come to learn unless you really know your onions. Sites like this contribute to the 'bad' flash sites but we all must start somewhere - i remember when i made my first square smoothly fade into a triangle, now I am using flash as a real solutitive tool for dynamic data retrieval and automatic site updates. The beauty of flash is that it is made in conjunction with coldfusion, dreamweaver, fireworks, freehand, swish, swift3d - the list goes on - do your homework and get actionscripting - lets make Flash respected not confused between good and bad programmers.

[Webforumz Staff]

We haven't mentioned anything so far with respect to the quality of actionscript within Flash movies. In fact the only mention of programming at all has been with Javascript. The comparison with Flash was made as both are client-side technologies and both can be used as (for example) form validation. The argument was that, if you decided not to use Javascript for form validation because it could have been disabled, then why should you use Flash when there is no guarantee that it is installed either?

I'm also a little worried by your terminology: 'within actionscript you can code javascript'
You can't code a language inside a language, but you can code a language inside a platform or within an application. As far as I know, it's not possible to integrate Javascript into Flash as Actionscript and Javascript are two very different languages. Javascript was designed to work with the browser and HTML. Flash *is* self-contained and doesn't interact with the browser or HTML elements much, if at all.

Additionally, no one said (as I think you claim) that Flash is better than Javascript. We were in fact, agreeing and using examples to point out that there are situations where Javascript or Flash or even a backend solution are more appropriate.

We're also not saying that people should always do things a certain way, we're saying that, in order to produce a site that is accessible to most people, attractive and generally well designed, then it must use appropriate technology. We also know that people have to start somewhere. You will see that from the sheer diversity of our users' abilities that there are people here who have just picked up Flash and people who have been using it for years (This applies to almost every section and technology on Webforumz).

I also don't believe that the beauty of Flash is that it is made in conjunction with Coldfusion, dreamweaver, etc. In fact I think that the integration between them is fairly minimal. Sure you can use elements from one with another, but that's about it.
The beauty of Flash is, in my opinion, that is is small and easy to use, but extremely powerful, fast and opens up the possibilities of all sorts of designs and ideas, as proven by the many uses of Flash on the web.

However, I must go back to the point of this thread which asks: How practical is Flash in a general sense?

We pointed out that the answer to this will change as broadband penetration increases. Quite simply more people will use Flash and the advantages it has (in some cases) as more people get broadband. But the point remains, there are many sitations where Flash is not appropriate and other technologies and methods exist which are better in those situations.

[JohnMitch]

<blockquote id="quote" class="ffs">quote:<hr height="1" noshade="noshade" id="quote" />guest3149 Posted - 28 Jan 2005 : 10:06:30
<hr height="1" noshade="noshade" id="quote" /></blockquote id="quote">

I don't mean to be rude and I mean this in the highest respect. What you said has nothing to do with the topic mentioned. You then come across by calling everyone here an ameteur yet you give faulty information. Flash isn't just for actionscripting (which is NOT Javascript). There are many cases with which it can be used for graphics, cartoons, and other entertainment purposes that it doesn't require any Actionscript.

The purpose of this topic was to discuss if Flash would be best for this person's audience.

Also, you called yourself a professional, but does that term mean anything? Many of our members here are also professionals. Some are also very good at what they do. The thing to remember is this, if you Really are a professional then you must act like one. Your post here makes you look very unprofessional. I think there are a lot of things that you need to learn about life as well as flash, and I wish you the best of luck in both.

[autumn_whispers2me]

Hi: My name is Autumn and I don't use Flash intelligently. Is there a pill I can take to correct this? hehe... seriously, folks. I suck at it and know it. What can I do to create better Flash presentations?

[Webforumz Staff]

I'll create a new topic where we can discuss that.....(!).